good sources: eyewear (no graphs, or talk of any co. please)

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mikeaurelius	Wale	#21	[-]
Posts: 539 (09/24/02 11:34:23) Vendor Representative Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Josh -- This has been an ongoing battle with almost all of our distributors, not just Wale Apparatus. The only distributor who has it together on this particular topic is Frantz Art Glass. It seems to be a matter of training. Mike Frantz trains his sales people on this very topic, and if the sales people can't handle the question, Mike himself takes the call, and if he can't answer it, he passes it on to me. I wish the rest of my distributors were this good - Glasscraft is close, but the rest... Case in point, I have a distributor out on the West Coast - his sales base is strictly boro (and mainly pipemakers). What does he buy from me? Economy Didymium. I've told him over and over again that it is not sufficient protection, but it seems to go in one ear and out the other. I can only hope that he is also selling clip on welders shade to go with them. As I've said, I can't force people to purchase the right eyewear, all I can do is try to educate them. We try to send out letters on a quarterly basis to our distributors, keeping them up-to-date with changes in products, and also on education issues. This topic has been repeated many times in the past couple of years. I have just made a change to my website that shows what our basic recommendations are for working with glass. Hopefully this will resolve a lot of these types of problems. Additionally, all of our product has been labeled with advisory labels and warnings for at least the past two years, when this became a major issue. I'm sorry that you were told the wrong information by Wale. At this point in time, there's not much I can do, but you can certainly call up Wale, and speak with Mike DeMasi about this. He is the head of the Sales Department there and he should be able to solve the problem for you. If you hit a wall with Mike, send me an e-mail (mike@auralens.com) with all of the information, and I'll get together with Mike and see if we can get it straightened out for you. At the very least, I'll see if I can get you a proper pair of glasses and just charge you the difference. Will that work for you? Now, for the rest of your question. The AGW-200 split lens design filters IR only through the lower green welders filter. We recommend this filter mainly for people who are working smaller pieces, like bead work. However, the AGW-200 is available as a full coverage lens as well, so that the entire lens is IR filtered. The drawback is that the entire lens is dark. We have a flip up version available with AUR-92 in the main lens and the green welding lens in the flip up, resulting in an equivalent AGW-200 lens.
rexwerx	Re: Wale	#22	[-]
Posts: 650 (09/24/02 13:16:52) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hey, "Bird makes the following claim (above): "the top half of the bifocals that the A dude makes are NOT SUITABLE FOR BORO as they are just 94s on the upper portiion and covered 92s on the bottom" ---------------------------------- Sorry, I meant to say they (the top half of 286s) are NOT SUITABLE FOR USE WITH COBALT BORO... --------------------------------- "and this: "the old glasses I had of his were 186s which are not labled unsuitible for boro yet don,t even have the equivilent of a shade number either as the coating is so thin, let alone a #2" The top half of an AGW-286 is the exact same as an AGW-186 - the exact same lens that Bird is saying is good at the very top of this thread (quoted here: "and tell him you want to order the 8807 and the KG3 glass from X-Cell (already laminated together), and cut into your frames or their frames. This will give you the same lens as I use "). Now, what has changed in the six or seven weeks since the original post was made? And why do you believe that the AGW-186 filter is unsuitable for working borosilicate? " ------------------------------ Well, I smashed my 186s and opted for the dy,s as they are lighter, and I use flips, so they are all safe to me, nothing has chaged there, I have always worn them in conjunction with flips so they protect me, without the flips they are worthless against cobalt...So, I will stand by what I said, again, they are worthless against the T. cobalt... Also I bought them from Wale in '99, broke the frames, sent them back, then they told me you claimed you did not even make them so you wouldn,t even fit them in a new frame, and Elliot (who is a really good sales dude), actually found a set of safety frames on his own, and installed them for me HIMSELF, something you were not willing to do according to them, though I bought them under the impression that they were a warranteed Aura product from an authorized dealer... ------------------------------ "Now, my AGW-186 filter is AUR-92 glass and a KG-3 equivalent glass type. I have always said that this particular filter is for use ONLY with clear borosilicate. I have never said that the AGW-186 is a suitable lens for working anything other than clear borosilicate. This lens was originally designed for scientific glassworkers, who work pretty much exclusively with clear borosilicate." ----------------------------- I bought mine from Wale as well, and was told these were the right lenses for making colored boro vessels, only later to find I needed flips if I wanted to work certain colors... If someone was selling my products and giving false info about them, I,d either correct it real quick like, or yank the account, no matter how much product they bought... ----------------------------- "So, why do we offer a split lens? Customer demand. Out of every 100 pair of borosilicate glasses we sell, 98 are split lens designs and 2 are full coverage lens designs. Why? Because people like split lenses. They offer the exact same protection, except that people can see through the upper portion of the lens before the colors start to flare." -------------------------- The only problem with that is, as you said about the flips, people have a tendancy to "peek and cheat over the shaded portion" at which point they are usless to the I,R. effects of cobalt boro, as well as the fact that half flips with dydimium are the same thing if not better (subject to opinion, but WILL protect against I.R. as good or better for sure, no doubt about it for about a third of the price)... ---------------------------- "I won't get into a debate as to whether didymium or AUR-92 is a better base filter - that is a personal decision that you must make. We sell our AGW series with AUR-92 because we believe that it is a superior filter to didymium - it removes more sodium flare at the same thickness of glass, it offers better color temperature recognition, and appears to be gentler on the eyes than didymium (that at least is what the majority of our customers tell us)." ---------------------------- Great, so you will admit that! Though I have found the dy,s WAY lighter, as well as me personally being able to see into colors much better such as T. cobalt... --------------------------- "Every person is different. The more time that goes by, the more differences we see in people who work hot glass. Some can stand higher temperatures than others with the exact same eye protection. Some can look into intense sodium flare all day long and not see spots afterwords. Some cannot. We have done a very unscientific survey and of all our customers that responded, we found that by far and away, the people most likely NOT to need (or wear) a lot of eye protection are those of Mediterranian or African descent. Dark/olive skin and brown eyes. Those who seem to need more protection than others are those who are blond/red haired and blue/green eyed. The rest of us seem to fit somewhere in the middle. Remember also that borosilicate as an art material has only been available and worked in any quantity for about 10 years or so. This is the very minimum time required for IR eye injuries to begin to appear. IR damage to the eye is cumulative. The higher and longer the exposure, the more the damage builds up. It may take longer for some than others, but nonetheless, it does occur. It may take 5 years for one person, and 25 years for another. Right now, I have a database of about 1400 glassworkers (those who have purchased eye protection from me). Off the top of my head, I can think of about 20 people or so on that list who have some type of eye injury from improper (or no) eyewear. The hazard is real, not made up. Sure, that number is small, but again remember it takes time for IR injuries to make themselves apparent." ------------------------------- Well, Snodgrass has been making pipes for twice that long, and I have seen photos in Banduhs book that are sick montoge sh*t made in '83 with alot of boro cobalt, as well as the science dudes I know have had rods of cobalt and red since the fiftys, so I don,t know where you are getting those numbers, I have many personal friends who have been making PIPES longer than ten years let alone art glass, which doesn,t really matter anyhow as it is as you stated the I.R that is the harmfull rays which are protected by the welders shade and not your base lens... ------------------------------ "As far as my personally working glass, I have found it helpful to be able to discuss eye protection and know what someone is talking about when they say they are doing gathers, fuming or inside-out, or what have you. I have at least a working knowledge of art glass and how it is made and by what techniques - both at the bench with a torch and at the furnace/glory hole. I believe it is very important to be able to relate to my customers' needs and demands. That way, I can create a filter specifically for that person instead of just making the exact same lens that another company does." ------------------------- my question to my customers would be "what colors/type/size of glass/fuming are you using", I believe this would solve any problems, I really don,t think you even have to have ever seen these techs to ask these questions and cypher which lens they need... -------------------------- "The price of my products seems to be one of bird's chief complaints. Several people on this board have complained of 'production pieces' cutting their livelihoods (like $2.00 spoons) and yet when it comes to a pair of glasses (of which they will perhaps buy only one or two pair for all the time they work glass), they want the $2.00 spoon. I don't get it. Apparently its ok when the money is coming out of your mouth, but not someone else's." ------------------------------ For the record I have never said your prices are to high once, not once... ------------------------------ "Bird wrote this a bit later: "Well, if you wait, so they tell me, there will be a couple companys coming out with mass produced versions of these, which will cut the cost BIG TIME" I've seen a photocopy joke "Price, quality, or delivery. Pick any two." I think you can figure it out." ---------------------------- Right! Dydimiums = 39$ + 80$ for GLASS flips = 110$ and they Deliver like a mo-fo... ------------------------------ "I've never forced anyone to buy my glasses. If you don't like the prices I charge - do what bird figured out. Make yourself a pair of ghetto glasses. This isn't his idea, I've been telling people about this for several years now." ---------------------------- Saving my ass and not saying a word on that one... ----------------------------- "You are all grown ups. You can make decisions for yourself. Don't buy into half truths about products written by people who don't know how the products are made and what they are made from and have never seen the inside of an optical shop." ----------------------------- So, the guys here arguing about what torch to use have no validity because they have not seen one being made? Now I am being written off because you don,t think I have not been in a glasses making shop? I would wager anything I own I have looked at more boro through "protective shades" of all types for ALOT longer than you have bro... And have a good friend that owns an optical shop, and though they are not for glass making I get the jist of things... -------------------------------- "As a brief example of costs, I just brought in a new line of frames for my "Value Line" which will feature all of my filters, but with lower cost frames, and a limited warranty. The bill for the frames was $10,000. A company cannot expand its business or do research or offer new products on $2.00 spoons. Think about it. " -------------------------------- Dude, for the record, I have never bitched about your prices for what you sell, I have just pointed out that there is a cheap alternative for newbies that will work for a permanent soloution as well, specifically: DYDIMUIMS WITH GLASS FLIP-DOWNS = 110$... So if you got no problem with that, I don,t think we have anything more to discuss... -------------------------------- Look, I don,t like this any more than you do, so lets lay this hatchet to rest here, I believe that dydimiums with flips work as good or better than any glasses you make, and you believe otherwise, well, I believe that GTT torches are the best torch for me to use as well, though there are others who will swear by Herbies, and though you have probably never seen a Herbie being made I have heard you say you have a GTT on order, I also would guess you have never used either to it,s full capacity, so you have to be taking someones word for it, there is no difference here in me making this recommendation as the dudes who are USING these on a full time basis are the ones who can give the best "CONSUMER REPORT", as to me, it is best to have the actual consumers to give an accurate report, but seeing how they are made has really nothing to do with if they work for you or not.... I hope I haven,t crossed any lines here, as I actually edited my post for content and found nothing I would concider out of line at in the least, strictly facts.... .......................Bird Rexwerx
bound4baltimore	For the sake of information	#23	[-]
Posts: 34 (09/24/02 14:05:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	lets please not ruin this thread too!! questions and answers are good and informative, but lets not take any of this personally. Mike Aurelius is a great resource for this board and it would be a shame if he really did stop contributing because he felt threatened or offended. So, maybe this time some people could just bite their tounges for the sake of spreading information, what do you say? Do you want to defend yourself or get pissed? write me a nasty e-mail or yell at your cat for a few hours. but please lets not get petty on the board. thanks a lot, i hope that i haven't overstepped my bounds I really don't know any of you, so who am i to talk back, right? well, i'm just another interested party who hopes the discussion lasts. la paz, jake
mikeaurelius	Bird	#24	[-]
Posts: 539 (09/24/02 15:29:06) Vendor Representative Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Jeez. You know, if you had said this a long time ago when we were having our 'discussion', I seriously doubt that things would have gotten as nasty as they did. I vaguely remember this transaction with Wale, and the reason I remember is that this does not happen very often (4 times in the past 3 years). The pair of glasses that sent back to were in a frame that I did not ever sell. We keep track of all the frame manufacturers and styles that we have ever sold (I have a pattern cabinet you would not believe). The frame that was returned was one that we had no match for. In cases like this, it is our policy to return it to the company (or individual) that sent it to us with a letter stating that the product was not manufactured by us, and is (of course) not covered under our warranty. We don't warranty frames supplied by our customers, and we don't warranty our competitors products. I'm glad Elliot was able to solve the problem for you. I am surprised, and frankly shocked that you opted to destroy $600 worth of eyewear that you could probably have sold to someone else and recouped at least part of your costs. If you are going to be at Lewis' show in November, look me up. I'll buy you a beer.
rexwerx	No hard feelings	#25	[-]
Posts: 650 (09/24/02 16:30:04) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hey, Sorry if I have gotten out of line here, and I,d love to patch this up, and have a drink with you... I would like to also apoligize to the administrators here, as this is not an easy thread to modedrate and I am well aware of that, and am sorry if I have made things worse... ..................Bird P.S. About the frames: I guess I should be upset at the company who sold them to me, as an Aura product, as I never changed the frames, was origionally told they were Aura glasses, and paid accordingly...
Bosco	Re: No hard feelings	#26	[-]
Posts: 1407 (09/25/02 08:29:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts
mikeaurelius	Bird	#27	[-]
Posts: 539 (09/25/02 08:55:17) Vendor Representative Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	E-mail me when you get a chance. mike@auralens.com
Mr Wonka	Awesome!	#28	[-]
Posts: 1675 (09/25/02 11:18:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hey, it's great to see that you guys have patched things up. Bosco said it best.....no hard feelings. Mike, it's great to have you back on the board........Tom
Ashby Gochenour	Re: Awesome!	#29	[-]
Posts: 809 (10/08/02 09:40:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thank you guys for the important topic of eye wear. I have a question that I am confused about now after reading the thread... It seems AGW 286 is clearly the most protection available on the market... Would everyone agree to that? Or is there anything similar with regards to protection? (other than the 'ghetto glasses') question: Do the upper half (not welders shade) protect your eyes from IR also, or would you need a flip down or full welders shade to get IR protection. I was confused about "peeking over". I didn't know if it means peeking out of the entire glasses, or peeking over the welders shade. My friend is going to be buying specs soon and wanted me to post asking if anyone has an opinion on the AGW 286 specs. He mainly wants to know if they are comfortable.
mikeaurelius	uhhhh....	#30	[-]
Posts: 539 (10/08/02 14:56:36) Vendor Representative Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If you consider the "ghetto" glasses as if they were a "version" of the AGW-200 (Full coverage of course), the green welding acts as the IR filter over the whole lens. Green Welding is an excellent IR filter, the drawback is that it is also a visible light filter, and some people like to see what's happening before the boro lights up the sky. An AGW-286 takes a different approach. In the classic configuration, that is 1/3 upper "clear" and 2/3 lower "dark", the upper 1/3 is a "clear" IR filter (very similiar to the Schott KG series glass, which is frequently used for filtering IR lasers), and the lower 2/3 is green welding. The "clear" IR filter is actually a better IR filter than green welding at the wavelengths we are most concerned with - near IR from 900 to 2600 nm. Radiation in this region does serious damage to the eye. Green welding lowers transmission rates to about 1% in this area, the "clear" IR filter reduces the transmission rates to 0.0001% transmission. A full coverage lens is the way to go if you want darkness all the time, but if you want to be able to switch back and forth either a split lens or a flip is the way to go. (Just a short plug) We've got something like 30 different frames now, if we can't find something comfortable...LOL! We are testing a new goggle, hopefully in the next two weeks we should know if it is going to be successful.
Ashby Gochenour	Re: uhhhh....	#31	[-]
Posts: 809 (10/08/02 22:10:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Mike, Thank you very much for the informative reply regarding the glasses and IR protection... When you said: <i> The "clear" IR filter is actually a better IR filter than green welding at the wavelengths we are most concerned with - near IR from 900 to 2600 nm. Radiation in this region does serious damage to the eye. Green welding lowers transmission rates to about 1% in this area, the "clear" IR filter reduces the transmission rates to 0.0001% transmission. </i> Unless I am confused: Based on that... 2/3 clear and 1/3 bottom shade be a better IR protection (when looking straight through to the glass) than 1/3 clear and 2/3 shaded or is there more to consider than the IR proteciton value. Also, on the welding shade part of the glasses, the welding shade is laid over the clear IR filter? (AGW286) Do the filters act differently upon UV as well? Hope that makes sense... Thanks again for the information! In the earlier post, I meant also to say, my friend is considering goggles and wanted to know if they are comfortable. I've only been practicing a few months now, but I consider eye wear and protection one of the things I want to learn most about... I only have cheapo specs now myself, but as soon as I can get some income (lost job in March and sold all my stocks to get torch and kiln I want to get AGW286. I plan to go with your product. Thanks again Mike!
mikeaurelius	Design	#32	[-]
Posts: 539 (10/09/02 03:36:12) Vendor Representative Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	No. The "clear" IR filter is a segment by itself just like the green welding filter is. The thing to consider about where and how the split is designed is your work habits and if you want to always be bending your neck in odd angles to see through the dark portion. Keep in mind that you NEED the dark lens! It filters out the immense color flare from hot borosilicate colors. We "standardized" the 1/3 clear 2/3 dark because most boro workers are working with flaring color about 80% of the time. By having the 2/3 dark covering the center of the lens, they are keeping a 'neutral' neck position. I just went through back rehab and learned a heck of a lot about back and neck positions and discovered that we've been doing it right from the start. We will put the split location where ever you want it, as well as the dark portion up or down. This means that you can have dark on top and clear on the bottom. You can also have shade 3 on top and shade 7 on the bottom. The only thing to keep in mind is that these are custom made for you and non-returnable. As for the goggles, stay tuned. Bosco should be getting a test pair this morning. I hope that he will post on the board about his experience (positive I hope!).
generationsglass	Re: Design	#33	[-]
Posts: 2695 (10/09/02 04:32:19) Founder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	OK, I think I am confused here. With the 286's, the whole base lens is the 92's? The top half is the only half that has the clear IR filter laminated to the 92's? The bottom only has the welding shade laminated to the 92's? I just want to make sure I have my facts straight. Kristian Turley Generations Glass AKA: fluffy lizard fanny
mikeaurelius	You got it.	#34	[-]
Posts: 539 (10/09/02 05:25:57) Vendor Representative Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yes. That is correct. The base lens is AUR-92. Laminated to that with special adhesive is a split lens of IR filter and a split lens of green welding. Green welding by itself is a good IR filter, which is why we don't extend the "clear" IR filter beyond the half lens. If you think in terms that the upper portion of a standard configuration AGW-286 is an AGW-186 and the bottom portion is an AGW-200, that should make it easier to understand. (We probably should have called it an AGW-386, but oh well LOL!) Back when we originally designed the filter, we used to use Green Didymium. When the green didymium began to run low, we switched over to green welding glass. (By the way, we still have a very small quanitity of green didymium left...)
erik anders	................	#35	[-]
Posts: 3081 (10/10/02 22:35:25) O2 Waster! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	i just want everyone to know tha tmy story is exactly the same as sables....... When i first started working boro, i used the econo didy's. Those sucked!!!! I then looking into getting glasses that are suited for boro. The only place i knew of that sold better glasses at the time was wale. I called wale and asked if the AUR92's were suitable for boro. THEY SAID YES. So i bought the aur92's. A year and half later i read that Mike A says 92's are only suitable for softglass not boro. Well that sucks for me, because I believed what wale told me. Mike did you explain to wale that the 92's are suitable for softglass only? I feel like i was mislead. I bought my 92's back in winter of 99'. If i would have know that the 92's were NOT suitable for boro back then I would have bought the ones that were suitable. now i got the split lenses and now those arent good enough.......oh well....... now i need another 400 bucks...... i couldnt patch things up with wale cause the crabon frames broke the one time i dropped them........... hey mike you need to make a more durable frame liek those flex fit frames........ and that doesnt get hot......... my glasses get so toasty that i swear they burn my face sometimes!!!! ~erik
mikeaurelius	ACK!	#36	[-]
Posts: 539 (10/11/02 03:39:58) Vendor Representative Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I had a very long discussion with Mike Demasi two weeks ago. I very carefully explained that AUR-92 was not sufficient protection, I explained about the IR problem. I also followed it up with a letter last week. They should now be telling the same information. Every one of my distributors SHOULD be on the same page. If you get told a different story now, please let me know, and I will call them and straighten them out. Erik - which split lens do you have, the AGW-200? You do have good IR protection through the green welding portion of the lens on this filter. You will have to be careful to look only through this section of the filter, but you are safe. I had a discussion with another boro worker earlier this week about his 9501 frames. I suggested that he line the metal portion of the frame at the bridge and the nasal eyewires with a narrow strip of duct tape. I've looked around at different materials. So far the only material besides metal that can possibly withstand the high heat is polycarbonate. Carbon fiber has dropped out of "fashion" mainly because it was so brittle, as you found out. When you dropped them, you should have called either Wale or myself - we probably could have replaced the frame for about $50 -- but they are all gone now. Bosco has the new goggle, and hopefully will be writing up a report on it.
erik anders	............	#37	[-]
Posts: 3081 (10/12/02 11:41:37) O2 Waster! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	i had called wale and they had told me that i would just have to buy a new pair............ or be out of glasses for liek 2 wweks while the resize them ........... to new frames ........... i said screw it and bought new ones............ i look through the tops of my glasses all the time ......... i cant help it.............. i think i want some new ones soon............. with 7 on bottom and 5 on the top whats the cost of that? -erik
mikeaurelius	(sigh)	#38	[-]
Posts: 539 (10/13/02 04:46:17) Vendor Representative Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I wish you'd have called me, I could have resolved it in a matter of days...the more I read about Wale.... anyway, the special split would be the same price as a standard 286, in the 9702 I think its about $367 (check my website to be sure).
BLACKopsKID	Re: wale...	#39	[-]
Posts: 47 (10/15/02 16:03:04) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"we found that by far and away, the people most likely NOT to need (or wear) a lot of eye protection are those of Mediterranian or African descent. Dark/olive skin and brown eyes. Those who seem to need more protection than others are those who are blond/red haired and blue/green eyed. The rest of us seem to fit somewhere in the middle." -mIKE aURA... are you just talking about the majority of the color of the eyes? or do people whose mom's white and father's of african descent...do they NOT need to wear glasses or what = please explain yourself on this.
mikeaurelius	Ok	#40	[-]
Posts: 539 (10/16/02 03:37:01) Vendor Representative Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think it's pretty self explanatory... people who have darker skin and darker colored eyes tend to be people who don't appear to need as much protection as those who have lighter skin and lighter colored eyes. Note that I am not saying that they don't need to wear protective eyewear, just that the trend seems to be that they are not as sensitive to bright light. There appears to be a genetic link, but this has not be substantiated apart from a trend I've seen among those who responded to a survey and those I personally talked to. This is not a scientific finding of fact, merely an observation. But think about it for a moment...people who have genetic backgrounds from equatorial areas of the world tend to have darker skin and darker eyes. The sun is brighter, the radiation is more intense, and this tends to promote darker skin and darker eyes as a genetic response and protection.

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